So, as some of you know there's a few websites that distribute work other people created, and some users ask money... For things they didn't make themselves. I feel BeamNG shouldn't suffer from these issues. My suggestion is that you design a way to protect the content both you(the devs) make, and the content users might create in the future. I've understood in RoR it is impossible to make it read locked zips... Personally I think creating some sort of special fileformat to replace the normal zip archives is a no-go: honest users wouldn't be able to do the stuff they like anymore, whereas the dishonest people would probably find a way to open up the new archives anyway. Even though I have zero knowledge of programming, I'm just gonna write up an idea of how it might be done, perhaps one of the devs could get a brainwave from that on how to deal with the issue properly if my idea is impossible... Personally I've never seen anyone steal the meshes from trucks/cars in RoR to port them to other games, I don't think the meshes should be too big of a deal. So the main focus would probably be on the BeamNG equivalent of the .truckfiles. Is it hard to write a text editor alike notepad or even Notepad++? If it's not too hard, perhaps it would be possible to do this: -BeamNG uses a special fileformat for the .truckfiles(I'm sure it won't be the same as RoR... Or maybe it will, who knows) -Like with RoR, you can save this format using notepad(or whichever texteditor Gabester currently uses to make his cars). -If you want to protect your content from other people opening them, there is a special notepad-like program available for download from this website, perhaps for a low price so that its development time can be financed (I'm sure most of us would happily pay 5-15 dollars for such a thing to protect their files). -That program is able to save the same format, but with a password protection. -If you try to open the password protected files with normal notepad, it simply won't be able to read the file(just like you can't make sense of the text when you open an bmp/png/jpg image in notepad). -If you try to open the password protected files with the special notepad, it'll simply say "this file is locked" or something similar. Obviously, there should be no way to find the files in the generated cache(if such a thing exists in BeamNG)... Surely the devs themselves would like to protect their n/b's and mapmodels just as much as the people who will make content for the game after release, so such a thing wouldn't just be useful for modders... It's pretty annoying when you know someone's making money off of something you've created for free. Hopefully there can be a solution to that when BeamNG is released
I really hate the idea of having to resort to this as it would really take away one of RoR's best points its free open source modding ability's, but if its needed its needed unfortunately. As for protecting and/or encrypting files I believe after a few months or even weeks people could find ways into these files, look at most major games most are encrypted in many different ways and most have been tampered with one way or another so we may end up having problems, but for creators that wan't to lock there file they should be able to do so. As for converted meshes from RoR there were a few old ones but none recently, however more people may convert from beamng because of higher poly or more detailed meshes and its extremely hard to prevent people ripping meshes with programs such as 3dripper ,etc. you can rip both textures and meshes in a few seconds. I've seen this in GTA games where people can lock the dff (model files) so it would be good to use a similar method if possible for truck and mesh files.
Yeah, that's what I realised as well, that it would take away one of RoR's best points. That's why I said, perhaps it would be possible to use a home-made text editor which can lock the files if you pay for the text-editor. If you don't want to pay for making your own stuff, then you can just use notepad, which will be able to save and open stuff too, unless protected. I can see that it might be impossible to have the same fileformat for both, and having (MS) notepad read one, but not the locked version(since you can't alter MS notepad). Perhaps the devs could make the BeamNG-truckfiles impossible to open with any normal text editor, but have a free special text-editor available for download which can open the files, unless it's password protected(and can't add a password to a file either). Then if you pay like 5 dollars you get access to the same text-editor, now able to save password-protected files but still can't open locked files(like with the locked GTA dff model files). This way it's still free to make your own content(unless you want to protect it), and the devs still get paid for developing the text editor. Even if it will eventually be possible for some to open the protected files, it should still somewhat prevent people from stealing mods the way it happens with RoR...
I've been thinking about this for the last few days as well. Like you, I'm not a programmer, but something has to be done about using some kind of other file system. The current .zip format is so insecure, and with the dev team's higher aspirations and goals of this project I think security needs to be stepped up tenfold to keep it all safe. As Veyron said, even encrypted game files from professional developers have been ripped and tampered with. But in my opinion, any sort of encryption would be far safer than the .zips we have now, even if it wasn't 100% airtight. The way I see it, if the files take a lot of effort to get to then a potential thief might not be so motivated. But with the current .zip system, which leaves absolutely every asset out in the open, it's easy to just dip in and take stuff out. It's like my bike lock. It's cheap, skinny, and any pair of bolt cutters could probably snap it clean in half with minimal effort. But it's still going to be a deterrent for the random bloke walking past to just simply walk over and take it.
I think you're trying to solve the problem from the wrong angle. I think the best way to protect the works would be to only allow mods to be installed through an official repository much like the one ROR has. What I suggest is that all files would have to be uploaded to the repository to be validated, and if a file passes validation only then would it be installable into the game. You wouldn't even have to have a person check every uploaded file. It should be an automated tagging process. And if a mod turns out to be stolen, than it could be deactivated by the moderators rendering it useless ingame. I think making the files unreadable would seriously hinder honest modders as well. Who would just be looking for ideas and examples in other works, and not looking to steal them.
They wouldn't be unreadable, since there would be a free text-editor on the forums that would be able to read them. Only if it was locked you would have no way to open then. And only if you would want to pay money for the "more advanced" version of the text editor, you would be ale to lock your files. That way there will still be plenty of people making mods that aren't locked(since most people are cheap and don't want to pay for stuff), and people like Gabester and me who don't like it when their stuff gets modded and then released can still protect their files. If you would have a repository, what stops people from downloading a file, making a website and uploading it there?... I agree fully with MindEraser btw Even if it's not 100% secure, it should still slightly prevent people like the aforementioned Russian website to release their mods so easily...
You don't understand. if someone downloads a file and modifies it, it won't work in the game. Because the game would have a database that contains all the registered mods.
Ah, I see what you mean. Seems like a good idea on first glance, but wouldn't it mean the game needs to have a way to check that database everytime you start it/everytime you add a new mod. Meaning you'd have to be connected to the internet at all times to play. That's usually frowned upon when AAA-titles do that as DRM. Besides that, I think it would be pretty hard to code(but I might be wrong on that) the game to check the files from a database... On top of that, it would require a lot of maintenance from devs(they would have to validate all files). The hastle of uploading everything to the database, awaiting validation, would also be annoying to new modders... I think the solution I suggested might be easier to code(depending on how easy it is to develop a text editor that can add a password to a file, and some sort of encryption on a new textfile-format that isn't readable by MS Notepad or Notepad++...), and it would require less maintenance.
As a creator, I understand that will be cool to protect our work, but with a password system the game probably won't open the file itself. Or it mean that there is a way to read it without password and someone will probably be able to do so and copy the content. I think none of the contents which is created by modders should be lucrative. With an official repository, the community can comment and check mods. If one is an unauthorized copy of another, community will be able to call a moderator of something like that. Mhm, it's an ethical question. :/
I'm all for protecting content, but prohibition never works. You're going to find that modders and thieves get around all kinds of encryption and all you do is find a complicated way to delay access for a small amount of time. Its a waste of effort.
It would still be better than having a .zip with no protection whatsoever. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, encryption may not be 100% airtight but it would still be an effective deterrent. With the way .zips are right now, every asset is out in the open. Even the simplest minds can dip their mouse in and just take, and modify, whatever files they please. I bet your bottom dollar that if RoR ran on encrypted files right now, there would be no trouble with these thieves. I reckon they just came across RoR, saw how easy it was to just nick everything, and did so with minimal effort. Like I said earlier - my bike lock could easily be broken with the right tools, but if I didn't have it then anyone could just come along and take my bike effortlessly. It's a deterrent. I put these thieves in that category of "random bloke walking past". They saw it was easy meat, and swooped in to take it. That's just my point of view, anyway.
I guarantee you that there would be a problem with modders and thieves even if the team employed a massive company to handle this. Prohibition never works, and prohibiting people from stealing or modifying assets is going to fail. Don't tell me that "you can't break this" isn't a cue for you to accept that particular challenge . I know when I'm told I can't do something I try and prove them wrong. In reality, stealing meshes and their textures is as easy as downloading 3dripperdx and hitting F11.
You don't get the point. It's not about 100% watertight solution to thiefs and modders. It's about having a slight deterrent so they actually have to put some effort into opening the files. The way it is in RoR will just not be enough for BeamNG in my opinion. If BeamNG is as easy to steal from as RoR, it will just ruin it for the content creators. I've pretty much had it with RoR already now that I know someone's making money off of things I make for free. Like said 2 times before, it's like a cheap bike lock. Having no bike lock will get your bike stolen in no-time. Having a cheap bikelock anyone could crack with a set of pliers will still stop the lazy modders(like the Russian website). They're too lazy to een change the n/b on the RoR cars, so they might be too lazy to try and crack a password protected file too. Yes there will always be a group whihc still steals stuff, but it wouldn't be as much as in RoR. Besides, I do believe it's (after all this time) still impossible to open a locked .dff file from a San Andreas mod... So it *is* possible to make something very hard to break.
I had explicitly written that the authentication could be automated, moderators would only have to step in if someone claims that a mod contains stolen content (and it doesn'T even have to be a developer just a moderator who can disable a mod) And yes there would have to be some sort of internet connection for this to work. But I don't see that as an issue. If there is no internet connection then you can't download new mods anyway. And if there is an internet connection why would it be a problem for the game to check the online database? There could also be a grace period of say 24 hours. So if a mod was authenticated previosly it should work offline for at least 24 hours without checking it again. And frankly I haven't seen internet outages longer than a few hours in the past five years. Online DRM is only a concern if it doesn't work or if its abused by the publisher. The only problem I see is development. How do you try out your mods during development. But I also have an idea for that. But that requires a bit more development, but ultimately I think It'd be worth the effort. Using password protected zips is a no go. Because how would it work? have a master key that all zips use is out of the question, it would get leaked in a matter of moments. And if you use individual keys for all mods then that would also require some kind of online system otherwise how would the game learn the password? Oh and even then it would be fairly easy to extract the password from memory while the game unpacks the zip. Yes usually any kind of prohibition or strict copy protection will only hinder honest users and modders. And only delay the thieves for a few days or at best weeks.
It doens't just delay the thieves for a couple of days or weeks. If it stops like 30% of the modstealers, that's already a great improvement over RoR. I'm not for protected zips, and indeed, that probably wouldn't work, and I never said I was. I think it's much much much more important to protect the n/bs(ie the BeamNG equivalents of the RoR .truckfiles). I think it shouldn't be too hard to have the game read the files without needing a password. If the BeamNG devs know the encryption the game could use that encryption to open the file without needing a password. GTA San Andreas can read locked .dffs, why couldn't BeamNG read locked .truckfiles or .truckfiles proteced by a password? As long as the mod-author doesn't give out his password, it should stop a fair few people from stealing the mod. Only the really hardcore modders will be able to crack it(ie, only the people alike the ones who made import/exportscripts for GTA with no help from Rockstar)... The scripts that were made to open the fileformats for GTA IV, after 5 years, still aren't bugfree(Zmodeler still can't export cars where the passenger area is defined properly). That means even if one or 2 people have the scripting knowledge to crack the protected BeamNG files, the 98 general Joes like me still wouldn't have a clue how to break the protection. And I'm also pretty sure none of those Russian modders have the coding skills to do anything remotely close to that... What you said about DRM: There's some pretty awesome game reviewers that totally bash an otherwise great game just because it requires you to be connected to the internet to launch it. Doing the same with BeamNG is probably a bad idea. It's like not including a field-of-view slider on a modern PC FPS. People will just bash the hell out of you for neglecting such a thing.
I feel obligated to respond, although I'm not sure how. I'll come out and say it as is. I'm simply not convinced by your point, Mythbuster. My friend and I have been tinkering with a DeLorean mod for SanAndreas and the process of removing the Zmod lock is easy, and well documented. The vehicles I've imported from IV while looking at game models to see how I should construct my own models are in fantastic condition when I put them into 3Ds max. On top of that you've not really shown that this encryption acts as a deterrent towards a significant and worthwhile amount of people. In my experience the effect is negligible. If its any indication, Gmod has a collection of mods consisting meshes stolen from a vast array of games irrespective of their attempts to protect their assets.
And what's to stop the more knowledgeable ones to create a "tool" that can unlock files for that 30% to use? There is no middle road here, either the protection protects the files or it doesn't If only one person can decrypt the files, then everyone will be able to do it soon. I thought you suggested it. As I've already said my main concern is the lack of examples for startup modders if all the files are locked, if there would be an extensive tutorial for modding explaining all aspects of the truckfiles with examples. Then I'm all for locking the files, but without that the only source of information to make new vehicles would be the ones already made. Well those reviewers then obviously live in the past, yes I was also bashing devs for online drm, ten years ago. Now a lot of games use it and you can't even notice it. And as I've said you wouldn't need to be online to play the game, you just have to be online to authenticate the installed mods, the very mods that you got online. It would make zero sense to cry out against that.
I can see that something does need to be done about this, but wouldn't this keep regular people from modifying cars and not releasing them? It doesn't harm anyone if I put your Cadillac on 22's, tune the engine, make it ugly, and add hydraulics, just as long as I don't post pics or upload it. I think this would be a disservice to people who want to modify cars for personal use, but indeed, something does need to be done...
How did you find this? I read posts and I honestly had to think for a minute to remember that I actually made them. This discussion was had before the Grand Marshal even had an interior. Thats the dusty part of the forum. Where's the admin? Make this man a model member, tell everyone who's ever asked a question for the 10th time to emulate this guy. on a serious note. thats kind of the policy they have on the RoR forums and to be fair, it'd be a perfectly acceptable policy to enforce here. We seem to have a forum with members that come down like a ton of bricks for doing the number most annoying things people do on Rigs of Rods so even if not enforced officially. I can foresee some stigma towards the first person to put a sketchup spoiler on the D15.
