Beamng and direct-drive steering wheels?

Ok, I know this is old but I had to comment so reader minds arent sullied by your incredibly incorrect and ignorant statements about the Leo Bodnar (or any direct drive) wheel.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, neither does your clearly uneducated "housemate". Number one, the motor used is a brand called Kollormorgen, they cost $1500-$2000 just for a motor directly from manufacturer. These are called servo motors, and they are large weighing in at about 30lb. They are typically used in things like CNC machines and are very expensive. They aren't your typicaly brushless motors.

Furthermore, there is much more than "PFETs, NFETs and and avr microprocessor" again you have no idea what you are talking about. First of all, you need a power supply that provides anywhere from 480-960watts and 48V, that alone is at least $100 for a quality mean well. Then there is this the servo drive, very much like a high quality cnc drive, then there is the main board (sort of like a motherboard) to communicate with the software, manage currents etc. Then you have all the wiring, and expensive cables and connectors that connect the motor to the control box, then you have custom adapters use to fix the wheel to the shaft, then you have the hardware for mounting the motor, then you have all the r&d that went into the product.

Anyone who would say what you said clearly knows absolutely nothing about the topic at hand, litteliterally just spewing nonsense. Please refrain from commenting if you are just going to make stuff up.

Kollermorgen motor and drive for $50 haha, what a joke. I'll give you $1000 via PayPal today if you can find that same Kollermorgen motor for that price.

One more thing that proves how ignorant you are, "an optical encoder"? These motors use their own custom encoders (or in some cases resolvers) which fit to the rear of each specific motor case. They are extremely accurate (like 40k ppr and up) and also expensive.

Direct Drive servo motor based wheels are nothing like belt driven.

Finally, just so you don't think I'm a Leo fan boy, I have a dd wheel but I chose not to buy Leo's setup. Instead I went with an OSW SimuCUBE with a MiGe servo motor. This setup cost about $1200. I don't own any Leo Bodnar products.

 

Clearly uneducated with a masters degree in electrical engineering and over a decade of experience in the industry.
Kollmorgon, visit their site, they are literally brushless DC motors. Theres no specific type of motor known as a servo motor, its just a motor driven under servo control at that point. Your lovely servo drive and main board, purely mosfets and a microcontroller, if you knew what these were and how servo drive worked, you'd know this, but hey apparently considering I've rigged motors under servo operation I am ineducated and spewing crap i know nothing about.
Kollmorgons encoders again, they arent optical, theyre hall effect, the difference here is negligible.
Custom adapters, look at the unit, its not many pieces. Wiring and connectors, disposably cheap.
And no I cant get you a kollmorgen that cheap, but I can get you a motor of equivalent torque that cheap.
--- Post updated ---
You make one valid point only. Research and development

 

Ok, well for someone with a masters in electrical engineering you seem to know very little about the industry and pricing. Please, I beg you to find a motor with comparable specifications to the Kollmorgen (my auto-correct always makes it "koller" for some reason) AKM52G-ANCNC-00 for anything less than a few hundred bucks. Even the MiGe 130ST-M10010 which I run on my system is about $360 stright from the factory in china, that's about as cheap as your going to get for the motor alone.

Yes, they are just brushless motors in short, and cheap brushless stepper motors are everywhere. However the same cannot be said for a servo motor meeting our requirements. First off, the difference between a servo and stepper motor is not just the drive, while that is half the battle a servo motor has less poles than a stepper motor and requires the use of an encoder (although steppers can operate with an encoder as well). There are also other behavioral/capability differences I won't get into. So while no it isn't some alien form of motor it still has a different design and a higher cost factor. They are also much more sensitive and capable more precise positioning (yes I know stepper can be made to use partial steps for more accuracy but not to the extent of a servo). Due to the lower number of poles a servo motor is able to provide smoother output at the shaft, as opposed to feeling every single step like you would with a stepper (even when powered off this can be felt as one is perfectly smooth while the other stops at fixed increments, when under heavy load it is worse). A servo motor is best for this application as even when a stepper is run in a closed loop along with the use of an encoder the feedback is still knotchy, where as a servo motor is very smooth. This is immediately noticeable when going from the accuforce to even a cheaper $1k direct drive system. Never the less, servo motors are more expensive, especially at the size we are working with.

Also, I am aware encoders are hall-effect, I never said they weren't. I said in this case they were custom to the motor design, in that they are made in such a way that they are compatible only with a particular line of motors. You can not take any old encoder and use it with this system. I use an inexpensive Chinese motor and the encoder it runs is still about $90 on its own. The ones Leo uses cost more. Another benefit of a servo motor for a dd system is the ability to run a resolver instead of an encoder. The Kollmorgen motor I mentioned above uses a resolver.

Now on to the drive, yes direct drive systems do use a standard servo drive (Leo's is proprietary though). In fact the drive I use (ioni pro hc) is made by is typically used with cnc. You will also need the main board which the drive communicates with. This is something readily available as well (although it makes more sense to go with the specially developed SimuCUBE board made by the same company). In the case of a direct drive wheel dedicated firmware will need to be loaded to that board in order for the system to communicate with the software. Before the SimuCUBE board we would just use a regular ioni 1x, 2x, 3x etc board. Usually just a 1x with one drive unless someone wanted more torque and a larger motor, there was a separate device that would allow the 1x board and drive to communicate with the software. The SimuCUBE simplified this for only a small additional cost, everything that is needed for a Direct drive wheel, such as direct communication with software wothout the need for an additional device as well as some additional inputs in case we want them and a bunch of other minor features are built into one unit.

Never the less though the cheapest option is still close to $1k with the cheapest possible "open" hardware. An ioni pro hc drive costs about 200 euro, the SimuCUBE board is 170 euro the motor/encoder $350, the power supply is about $100-150 for a quality MW with the proper specs, then you have the motor mount, a split bushing (only like $30), steering wheel adapter, quality steering wheel, a nice asthetically pleasing case for the electronics, wiring, fan, emergency kill switch etc.

Could you buy all the individual circuit board components (mosfets, resistors, microcontrollers, caps, heat sinks etc) and build your own circuitry for less? Maybe, but probably not. Also, that won't do you much good without developing your own drivers/FW to allow communication with the software. Unless you plan on utilizing existing FW and existing drivers from another direct drive wheel. I don't know about Leo but they may do what the makers of the accuforce do and only provide those files if you purchase a wheel from them. MMoS and SimuCUBE FW is available to the public. This would all need to be configured and developed by the builder though. But that's ok, I'm sure anyone looking to buy a dd system is an avid coder as well as capable of designing their own circuitry. Oh wait a minute, no they aren't. Well it's a good thing someone else is willing to put in the R&D. I'd say that is worth a small premium, and since we know how much that motor alone costs in the Leo system, when all the other components and hardware are factored in there probably isn't a massive amount of headroom left for profit. When you compare this to the system I run (which cost me $1200 because I got additional accessories, my setup bare bones could be about $800-1k) the profit margin becomes even smaller.

The system Leo sells is different to my less costly setup, he uses proprietary electronics which he designed specifically for this application. He also developed a custom control panel and drivers/fw for his system, much more complex than what SimuCUBE uses. These are the research and development points I make, this adds cost. Plus he uses a very expensive high quality motor. While I don't believe the cost difference is worth it for my needs (hense why I went with an OSW with a MiGe motor instead), for a race team or someone who wants the absolute best at any cost it is worth it. You simply cannot recreate his system without reverse engineering and developing a system of the same exact components that works with his drivers/Fw. You also can't easily develop your own drivers/FW instead. The Kollmorgen motor is in fact smoother and apperently more reliable than the MiGe, and the system as a whole provides more refined ffb. Again, this isn't the only option, my system is less than 1/3 the cost and I would say provides 95% of what the Leo system provides ffb wise, I can't speak on reliability first hand but there is no denying the Leo motor is top shelf. Even people saving money on an OSW system are still paying out for the more expensive Kollmorgen motor though.

I am failing to see where I was wrong here though? All you did was say you have a degree and tell me I was wrong, without backing it up. You still havent shown a more cost effective solution, let alone a full servo based system with comparable specifications for anywhere near the prices you threw out. Believe me, if you can come up with a viable solution to the high cost of direct drive wheel systems I would shake your hand, as I could make a lot of money! However, as someone who knows what I'm talking about when it comes to direct drive systems I can unequivically say that it costs close to $1k to build a complete ready to run servo based dd system that is comparable to the systems we are discussing.

Nothing you've said has successfully rebuted my statements. While you may know about mosfets and microcontrollers (or at least enough to know that a circuit of this type will contain those components) you fail to explain how you would integrate these components to duplicate the circuits in question and enable said circuit to communicate with the software to provide FFB. I can promise you that the skills used to do this would be worth a premium, the very same premium that is paid when purchasing the complete circuit from an existing manufacturer.

To be honest I usually wouldn't have bothered with this discussion, but the post I initially replied to was absolutely false and missleading. Not only that you were bashing a reputable company by providing those false and baseless claims.

 

Honestly when you make a whopping 3 errors in regards to motors (quite basic ones) within one paragraph, I see no reason to continue reading that wall. I don't have time to continue arguing with those whom clearly lack understanding.

I work in the electronics industry. I know plenty about this. I myself am a software engineer in said industry. I have a computer systems degree. I've built such hardware. This has been run past electrical engineers. What more do you want? I'm done, you want me to educate you on how these things work you can pay my usual hourly rate.
--- Post updated ---
Maybe in morning when I'm not heading to bed you can be re-educated on how motors, positional feedback and microstepping works. Then you can slog falsehoods back but it's alright because you clearly don't read what i say, lovingly misquoting me and bringing in devices i didn't mention and it's not like I've not made motor control systems so yes do have half a clue what I'm on about...

 

Please, tell me what I said about motors that is incorrect. Everything I said, particularly in relation to the motors used in this application, is correct. The only thing I did wrong was leave details out which would only further prove my point.

I honestly feel like you are trolling because you can't possibly think stepper and servo motors are of the same design and the only different in the way they are driven. A simple Google search will tell you that isn't true. But I guess since you seem to think I am incorrect I will elaborate. What I am discussing here are the very basic differences between the types of stepper motors and the types of servo motors which would be used in this application. I understand that there are several variations and styles of stepper motors especially when it comes to smaller applications. Having said that what I am saying is correct.

Stepper motors can be operated by microstepping to allow for more steps than the given number built into the motor. No matter what though you are stuck to a fixed number (a number lower than that of a servo) of steps per 360 degree rotation, even with a high pole count you are limited to a multiple of that number. Microstepping can be implemented on the control side to allow for a greater number of steps than is automatically allowed by the number of poles (which are essentially positively or negatively charged teeth in a stepper motor) and the number of stators/electromagnets. It is this very design of having teeth with every other tooth being positive and every other negative that is the limiting factor when comparing to a servo motor for use in a direct drive wheel. Also, when I say every other tooth is positive I don't neccessarily mean next to eachother, there can be two sets of teeth that make up the rotor, one positive one negative, they are staggard not in line. The point still stands though, these teeth are fixed positional points that the motor can move to and stop at. This is true even when using a stepper with an encoder, although microstepping helps to increase the number of steps.

While stepper motors will generally have better holding force at those fixed positions (some can even hold position with no power applied), they are not ideal for use under heavy loads and the movement from one position to another (meaning a change of more than a single step) is not nearly as smooth as a servo motor. A stepper motor will need an encoder (closed loop) if used in a direct drive system, both for telling the game the position of the wheel and because without an encoder steppers are suceptable to missed steps causing their center point to be lost. This can happen with a stepper motor (assuming there is no encoder) when the load applied to the shaft prevents it from moving in accordance with the signal sent from the drive, something that would happen all the time in this application.

Stepper motors are less complicated to drive because all that has to happen is a pair of stators (one phase, can also be just one stator per phase instead of pair) to be energized with the proper polarity for the motor to move one step, this can be repeated for multiple steps. This happens because one positively or negatively charged tooth is always one incremental step away from lining up with a stator(s) (or electromagnets if you prefer). So basically if there are 4 stators (two pairs) spaced 90 degrees apart than at any given position two teeth (one positive and one negative) will be directly lined up with two opposing stators, the other two stators will each be halfway between two teeth. If the lined up stators stators are powered off and the other two opposing stators powered on then the rotor will rotate the distance of 1/2 a tooth to line up with the stators which have been switched on. Repeat for more rotation. Of course there has to be a pattern for this to work and each stator needs to switch to the proper polarity to rotate the motor in the requested direction but this is a basic idea of how a stepper motor works. (Image below)

Speaking of the way these two motor verieties are driven, a stepper can be controlled simply by means of alternating polarity of a particlar stator(s), a servo motor is a bit more complex. A servo motor requires an encoder which the drive can "talk" to for positional data. When a new position is called for the drive will increase current In order to move the motor to a given position. This allows for greater positional accuracy beyond the fixed positions of a stepper. Unlike a stepper, which has a resolution limited by the number of positively and negatively charged "teeth" as well as the number of phases, a servo motors resolution is limited by the encoder itself. The encoder will have a much larger number of positional steps than the number of steps achieved by the teeth and phases within a stepper motor, even when microstepping is considered. Servo motors are also more efficiant, particularly at high RPM (not a big deal for sim racing). Stepper motors are capable of higher torque at low rpms, however their lack of efficiency, inability to take advantage of power wells, and inability to smoothly move from one position to another still puts them behind servo motors for direct drive wheel application. Also, as I said before a stepper can be run with an encoder (closed loop), however it will still be limited by the maximum number of positional steps allowed by the number of teeth, number of phases, and microstepping. This is a very simple explanation, but the theory is sound.

To be honest, I don't know how anyone could say steppers and servo motors are the same, have you ever seen the inside of a stepper motor? They are completely different in their design. What I've written isn't even everything, it's just what I felt like explaining right now. There is definitely more to the story. Stepper motors are typically louder and create more vibrations, stepper motors cannot produce bursts of torque beyond their torque rating while servo motors can typically output bursts at 200% of their rated constant torque, great for acceleration. This is a big deal for sim racing. The most important thing is the smoothness, due to their design stepper motors will never be as smooth as a servo motor for use with sim racing, nor will a stepper achieve the same positional resution as a servo motor with a good encoder.

There are so many factors that make these two motor styles different, and so many factors that make servo motors the better choice despite their higher cost and the fact they they are more complex to control.

Below are a few exploded veiws which show the differences in design. Sorry the words are blurry.

Here is an image of the inside of a stepper motor. As you can see the motor has teeth (poles) fitted on a pair of rotors (one negative set one positive set), you can see the stators or electromagnets around the outside. It is the teeth that give stepper motors their knotchy feeling as the perminant magnet teeth react with the stators.


Here are two picks of a servo motor. As You can see the design is entirely different. In this motor the rotor is smooth and the number of poles is much lower (although that can't be seen in the image). This motor allows for smooth positioning to any point allowed by the encoder, it is controlled via modulating current which the drive applies in order to rotate the motor to a given position. If there is a load more current will be applied accordingly. Because there are no teeth or high points to meet with specifically positioned coils there is no step feeling. Having said that I should mention that even some non-stepper motors will have poles that can be felt, however the ones we use do not.

 

please indicate where *I* said I had a masters degree, then go look at the product sheets for your beloved motors where they clearly state theyre just brushless motors with control circuitry. Must know I found a motor of equivalent power and torque (keeping in mind that one you listed is overpowered for purpose) for the whopping price of £30. Its called a car starter motor. Its brushed so does not exhibit the cogging inherent to steppers and brushless motors at the cost of being less efficient. But the drive circuitry is also cheaper accordingly.


It really isnt hard to take a motor, stick positional feedback on it and have it communicate over USB, this is all these direct drive wheels are.

The price you pay comes from a few factors.
These are not bulk sale items and so the manufacturers cant source parts at bulk quantity, the lack of saving here is passed onto you the customer.
Development time, which mostly comes from the firmware.
Premium item tax, not as an actual legal tax, but because the company knows theyre the only one producing a niche item and so can get away with charging a premium.

In general items in the electronics industry have about 25% of their cost allocated to the actual worth of the item, the other 75% is development. Split here is closer to 10:90

 

I have not experienced super crazy movement like that with my G920. However, I find the way the FFB is handled too aggressive and actually heard my gears stripping with using my G920 with FFB on, so I stopped using my G920 for BeamNG.Drive.
(yes, I'm aware I could turn the fore of the FFB down)

 

I understand moderator, and I will be as polite and respectful as possible. I am here to provide the community with the truth so the incorrect statements made by this member are not misconstrued as being accurate.

My mistake, it is your "housemate" who supposedly has a masters in electrical engineering. I hope this is not true though because he is feeding you inaccurate information.

Look, I am trying to be as nice as possible, but you are feeding lies to the community and I am trying to set that right.

I am sorry but this last post clearly shows you are not properly informed on this topic. Obviousely they are all brushless motors (you clearly didn't read anything I wrote btw), that isn't even an argument. A starter motor will NOT work well as a FFB steering wheel motor. Will it technically provide movement, yes, but it will be absolutely horrible feeling and will not provide the torque needed throughout the proper RPM range (unless maybe you used a gear reduction system, but wheels like this already exist). Also, starter motors are brushed, just fyi.

What you are doing is saying that because it is a motor, it is the the same as any other motor, as if all motors are created equal. By that logic, a $15k Hyundai is all you need to win a formula 1 race. They are both cars with tires and are both powered by internal combustion engines, so why would anyone need to spend millions building an F1 car? The Hyundai should do the same thing right? There is a reason different applications call for different tools. Even matching torque like we are with motors, a pickup truck with the same torque and hp as a GT3 race car isn't going to perform just as well on a track, it isn't the proper tool for the job. To be fair, the motors we use aren't purpose built for force feedback, they are built for CNC but happen to work just as well for force feedback. Unfortunately the same cant be said for car starter motors (trust me I'd be selling my setup and using a $30 starter motor if that were the case). We need more than torque, we need detail, refinement, smoothness, accuracy etc.

Another point, saying the motors we use are over powered is incorrect. In fact, none of the motors I listed are able to match the steering wheel forces created by some real race cars to a 1:1 ratio. While a 30Nm motor can match most vehicles, some cars create even more force at the steering wheel than that. The goal with a direct drive sim racing wheel is to get as close as possible to a 1:1 ratio.

Another point, these motors we use are not made specifically for this purpose, they are mass produced industrial motors, we repurpose them. As I have stated they are typically used for CNC machines (hmm, wait a minute, why don't CNC machines use car starter motors? Oh that's right, because they would be highly inaccurate and a horrible choice for the application). Same goes for the electronics in my case (technically my main board is specific to sim racing wheels but that was by choice, besides the board I use is about the same price as a 1x CNC board, so no special development cost there). The motor drive is simply an Ioni Pro HC used for CNC as well. The drivers and FFB software I use are specifically developed, but they are free. The whole point of an OSW direct drive wheel is to use readily available, mass produced components to save money, it just so happens that these mass produced industrial components are high quality and still pretty expensive. If the motor and electronics were specifically developed for this application the cost would be many times higher. Even the Leo Bodnar system which uses a mass produced motor but specially developed electronics, drivers, FEB software etc are 4 times as much as an OSW for only a marginal performance increase. I would be the first to tell you that is way more than anyone needs to spend, that's why I went with the "cheaper" option which uses readily available mass produced components.

For reference, the motor I use is a MiGe 130ST-M10010 this is a readily available mass produced servo motor. Buying it straight from the factory in China costs about $350-400 with shipping, encoder and cables.

Another point, many FFB wheels do use regular (or sometimes low cogging) brushed dc motors. These motors require gear reduction in order to increase the force from the cheaper and weaker motor, these motors are usually really high RPM so they still produce decent speed at the rim after the gear reduction. There are also wheel bases that use smaller brushless motors along with a gear train to save money while still getting decent performance. None of these come close to the feel, detail and torque throughout the RPM range of a direct drive wheel though. There is a reason we use the motors we do, if there wasn't then all of these companies who are trying to make direct drive wheels affordable to the masses would be using $30 starter motors (I still can't get over how silly this is). I am quite certain that you have not debunked what years of research and development has found.

I'm sorry but you know very little about this topic and now when the time comes to back up your claims with facts you are not able. There are very good reasons we use the components we do.
--- Post updated ---
Also, I have my direct drive wheel working with beamng with full FFB. I used an Arduino Leonardo along with GIMX software to fool beamng into thinking I am using a logitech G27. Works great!

 

Ever had hands on a starter motor? Significant torque, too much for application

 

Yes, many times as a mater of fact. There are several aforementioned reasons why a starter motor would be a poor choice for this application, as well as several others I haven't even gotten into. I am done trying to explain this to you.
--- Post updated ---
As for the original issue I came here for, there is still no solution for using direct drive wheels with Beamng aside from tricking the game into thinking I am using another wheel such as a G27. I would really love to see this implemented as the lack of direct drive wheel support is preventing me from playing this game. I love Beamng and would like to be able to play it again with my current hardware!