Update Speculation thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by crazikyle, Jan 26, 2016.

  1. FLyInG 2 YoUr SoUL

    FLyInG 2 YoUr SoUL
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    The day a professional driver comes here and says driving simulation sucks in this game, I'll believe it.

    An "experienced" gamer comparing BeamNG to Assetto Corsa (and Initial D), though... lol, are you kidding me?
     
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  2. Nadeox1

    Nadeox1
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    No game is 1:1 with reality, they have to deal with limitations here and there.

    It reminds me a readme file in the Richard Burns Rally game describing this (unless I'm mistaking it for another game)
    Reality is not made of polygons, computer graphics is. In reality you have a smooth road, in a game you have a strip of triangles, and extend that to pretty much anything.
    You can attempt to replicate reality, but it's so much until you need to deal with those limitation this way of representing information puts on you.

    Some games do take a different approach for wheels for example, and consider only the point where the wheel is touching the ground.
    Others like BeamNG.drive try to consider the whole wheel shape
    Both methods to represent this reality has its pros and cons, more or fewer approximations, more or less trades-off, more or less complexity.

    If you compare the very early versions, there's has been a huge improvements into the vehicle handling and behavior since then. This is a continuous huge work[1] that doesn't have a defined end.
    I'd really take as a grain of salt strong claims about the handling because:
    • A person's background in this genre and cars, what they use to drive with, and so on. A Need for Speed player saying cars drives on ice™ against one more experienced in the field giving more detailed reasoning[1] [2]
    • Biased opinions. A characteristic everybody has. We tend to 'defend' things we like and do the opposite we what we don't like.
    • Probably some more, but you get the point there's a strong individual component playing here.
    An engineer/scientific approach, testing and comparing results and data and so on is a way to take out the those, at times misleading, human values and get a step closer to the unbiased truth.
    That also describes the approach we take with this stuff (for example the way tires are tested, described already in two blogpost, is an in-engine replica of the real approach)


    Oh, and then there's this, which is valuable material to understand thing under a different, presumably more informed, view:




    [*] When I say biased, I don't mean the rude meaning, to be clear if it wasn't already.

    [1] This is valid for pretty much anything that involves feedback. It's a very generic view not specific to what's above.
    Giving feedback considering the size/complexity of what's being discussed is important.
    Something like 'X is better than Y' or 'Y sucks', without giving any further reasoning is not helping Y with useful information.
    While a more detailed, unbiased explanation of why something in Y is not yet there is much different.
    I think reviews on any sites is a good example for that. Hundreds of reviews leaving a positive/negative rating but only accompanied with a 2-3 words reasoning ( It's ok! / It does not work!! :mad:) has much less weight than a single, but well explained one that allows for improvement :)
    Again this is a very generic view not specific to what is being discussed above.

    [2] As there are sim racers having more or less trouble with the handling, there are as many praising the game for it instead. Again, biased opinions are part of us.


    edits are for english
     
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  3. Diamondback

    Diamondback
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    Plus driving it in VR/surrounded by screens and on a fully working high end motion platform. Because let's face it, if anyone argues that a game doesn't work close to reality while omitting the most important feedback there is in real life driving, then something is obviously wrong with that argument.
    I think there is no point arguing about whether or not other games successfully make you feel like you are a pro driver, but if we really want to compare things to reality, we also need all the feedback reality gives you. (Which to date I have not seen anyone do for beam)
     
    #13223 Diamondback, Oct 26, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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  4. fufsgfen

    fufsgfen
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    I'm really far from professional, done only few thousand laps on race tracks IRL with different cars, few rallies and driving way that would get you arrested at countless nights, but I agree 100% what Nadeox says.

    For me Covet for example is very much like comparable real variant, weakest point of tires in BeamNG, imo, is putting torque to ground, but then again BeamNG is pretty much only game that I can really relate to handling wise from IRL experience, you drive the weight, not cardboard object on rails, you have do all possible tricks that work IRL to make that mass go around a corner.

    It is not like some typical sims where you are on rails and then all of sudden thing spins out, completely negating need to drive the mass, which is what you do with shitty econoboxes. That actually was selling point of the game for me, then there is physics simulation part.

    I have really no idea what I'm doing here as I could not remember corners at all, but just to show that Covet has oversteer if you want it to have that, you balance it with your feet, tie down understeer with a light left foot braking, that is how it works IRL too. I taught one guy IRL who liked it so much he drifted his Civic around the parking lot for several laps screaming in excitement how controllable it is.
    Just basic rally thing you need to know if you are going to .Drive a car.


    This is closest I think, lacks VR for obvious reasons of course, but maybe some day :p
    https://www.beamng.com/threads/we-drove-off-cliffs-and-into-holes-in-our-motion-platform.52773/

    But yeah, inputs with our tiny plastic wheelsets tend to be also quite rough, we thing applying 30% but are doing 70% throttle etc. Lack of feedback.

    I made a fuzzy dice, well it is WIP and far from finished, but that shows actually how rough one drives, you try to accelerate like in real life and dice is swinging around like a mad, because somehow that gentle acceleration turns out to be something whole lot different.

    That lack of feedback makes especially turbo cars challenging to drive, to know amount of torque one puts to powertrain, it is not so easy without feedback to spine.

    That kinda makes me dislike K-series without ESC active, maybe also that creates part of the feeling of rubber not transferring torque to movement quite satisfactory way, but it will be interesting to see how things develop in a future.
     
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  5. Яeverse Bass

    Яeverse Bass
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    Well, there's a 'rumble' option AFAIK. Not the same, but it does give you an idea of the current state of grip.
    It actually is. :p:p:p
     
  6. Michaelflat

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    Jumping back to the topic of this thread, anyone think there will be an update today. That halloween update will be nice. I know i moaned about it, but it's better than nothing.
     
  7. CN877

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    6:18 PM here and still nothing, wouldn't get hopes up... Maybe Saturday (hopefully)
     
  8. fufsgfen

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    It might be quite nice actually, I'm looking forward of it, especially as I missed out old Halloween mod.

    Today, I don't know, that is what I did bet, but they might go for official day of Halloween which is last day of October, even though celebration happens next Caturday I guess.

    So I would say less than 50% chance for today, 30% chance tomorrow and 30% chance for Wednesday. Oh yes, I know I added extra percentages, but that is just wishful thinking for today, Nadeox has hinted few times that not quite, so that leads me to believe maybe next week, or Caturday, but probably not, maybe.

    Wednesday by latest I guess.
     
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  9. corvette81

    corvette81
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    So the order of the day is "we can't make it perfect so lets not do anything" Kek

    Its not a major ask for tyres to act like tyres, you can't get a full understanding of a cars handling by driving in a circle with a g meter, especially when I have been told the g test was flawed. I dunno if it was or wasn't I have heard 3 different people tell me 3 different things.


    that seems untrue look below at veyron's post for why I don't think beam "tries to consider the whole wheel shape"




    I am sorry but I used videos that demonstrated a shared issue of the handling so I believe I was pretty clear what feedback was and/or wasn't.
    If you can get some high level professional racers and sim racers in un biased for their opinions I would say go for it but hundreds if not thousands finding issue in the handling due to tyres and or other reasons is not a thing you should ignore.




    I will sum up with Race car drivers aren't needed to say something isn't right, just like a chef isn't needed to say a dish tastes bad.

    I don't mean to be rude with this post its just that this is meant to be a "simulator" and it seems like its flaws are being cast aside as "well it works" and if thats the case lets call roblox a simulator also or nfs one.
     
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  10. Ai'Torror

    Ai'Torror
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    Tires simulation in BeamNG is actually better than in most sim games (if not all other sim games) if you take into account tires with bigger sidewall or old bias ply tires. Not many games can simulate the feeling of actually driving on an anflated rubber bubble as well as BeamNG does.
    Also you have to take into account the fact that over here you're not only supposed race, but also deal with bumps which most "sim" racing games seem to forget about.
    I found handling in most other games rather stiff with no play at all
     
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  11. Cheekqo

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    I think what he means is that it's really hard.
    Tires in BeamNG are sort of realistic but not really.
    A tire with any tread at all should not understeer around the 1st bend at WCUSA's racetrack, but despite me trying quite a few cars, most of them could not gain grip even at 40 MPH.
    I can sort of understand your point but to actually succeed at that track you must have a car with unrealistically grippy tires or you have to go really slow.
     
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  12. Capkirk

    Capkirk
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    You can get through the first bend at WCUSA at around 40 if you drive well. And anyway, it's actually a pretty tight corner, and my car in real life gets some concerning understeer if I try to make a corner like that at 35. I think tire physics aren't amazing in beamng, but they do match my real life experiences.
     
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  13. Cheekqo

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    Try the first bend at Hirochi Raceway then.
    Some cars will understeer on that bend at 50-60 MPH.
     
  14. stenyak

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    Guys, this is not the place to discuss physics realism. There's a whole forum out there that can be used for other topics than Update Speculation.
     
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  15. CaptainZoll

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    I think the main issue is, where most other games make the cars handle easier, to make it easy for people on keyboard. beamng, however, goes full sim, and while it is possible to race fast on keyboard, it is quite a lot harder, than other games like forza horizon and dirt 3 (from my experience, cars with road tires on forza motorsport 6 actually felt less grippy than the cars with road tires in BeamNG. again, probably down to the sense of speed.)
     
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  16. Cheekqo

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    Tried it with my full Logitech G27 set too
     
  17. fufsgfen

    fufsgfen
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  18. SebastianJDM

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    huh? on shitty 90s tires maybe. on sport tires i can get through there going 70-80, and almost 90 on race tires.

    back on topic i guess, i really hope we get the two-step and real-time groundmodel painter in the next update. it will be fun to see how the cars take different types of corners on different surfaces, and the two-step will just be fun to tune in general. i cant wait to see what stock cars they come on.
     
  19. ManfredE3

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    To be honest I’m more scared than anything else to see what configs the Autobello comes with. Between the “highly customizable” part of the Autobello Picolina thread OP and the “new features” post that was on here, I know I’m hoping for more than will realistically come.

    I’m expecting this to be like the Hopper, with a healthy but not incredible amount of parts and a promise of more coming that will not be realized in the foreseeable future.
     
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  20. fufsgfen

    fufsgfen
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    I'm so excited of the what surprises there will be and what kind of scary hunt they have crafted.

    However soon we will find out, not for a long.

    Luckily BeamNG is not one of those 100GB games to download :rolleyes:
    upload_2018-10-26_19-4-17.png
     
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