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Other paid vehicle mods?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Driver2210, May 1, 2022.

  1. AX53

    AX53
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    Official content does have encryption. I said this in the original comment. The files beamng want to protect, such as the engine samples are in an encrypted zip. Hence why I brought it up as a suggestion.
    --- Post updated ---
    Overpriced mesh slaps doesn't sound like a problem to me. I'm not a mesh slap user so this doesn't affect me. Who cares if crappy mods are expensive. Just don't buy them. It's not like you would get them if they were free.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. IonicOwl

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    Not trying to discredit, but if someone says something that is objectionable, they ought to be called out on it.
    You might extend that question to "should BeamNG get a share of the revenue for any paid content the works for their game?"
    The answer to that depends on licensing. In the Creative Commons license model for example, an Attribution license applies to your work allows anyone to do whatever they want with it, even make money from it, so long as the original author is credited. An Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs license on the other hand allows someone to redistribute your work, but they can't change it, derive from it, or make any money from it. This isn't an issue of morals, it's an issue of license. In the context of mesh-slaps or reused assets from the vanilla game, the use of vehicle meshes from other games is clearly a breach of license, both because the game that mesh was lifted from is highly unlikely to allow for redistribution, and because the car manufacturer only licenses their brand/image/designs to the original game. For vanilla content from BeamNG, that depends on what their EULA says about the topic.
    I don't know the answer to this, but there's likely precedent set by IP owners of abandonware like old games. Morally, it might be considered something like restoration of works, but legally, who knows.
    I think that is up to whomever is fixing the mod, but it needs to comply with the license of the original works, as mentioned above. Like creating the content in the first place, such work takes time, effort and expertise. Whether an individual wishes to see a financial return on their time investment is up to them... ultimately the value of that time is up to the market, I guess.
    In my opinion, no. The value of things change all the time. If I bought stock in company X at £1 a share, then the next day that share price went down to £0, I'd be laughed out of the room for trying to get my money back at the original share price*. It's not unheard of for people to offer partial discounts as a gesture of goodwill, but it's not enforced, nor should it be really.
    (*actually this is not a solid metaphor because shareholders can sue companies for loss of share value as a result of bad/negligent/unwise business practices)
    I'm sure there are legal protections that will differ in each region that would protect the consumer against something like that happening. It would have to be clear that the product was mis-sold though. I'm pretty sure (but not certain) that the UK Distance Selling Regulations wouldn't apply here either, because they tend not to cover non-tangible goods, or items that have been customised, but other countries may have other rules.
    I've seen shader presets on this forum that rely on the paid version of Marty McFly's RTGI shader to work as advertised. If free content depends on content that is retroactively placed behind a paywall, then the creator of the free content should consider changing dependencies, or at the very least making it abundantly clear to their users of the change.
    I don't think they do. Personally I prefer to pay for something outright, but others may not. It's up to the creator how they wish to seek payment for their work. They ought to choose wisely though, because they may limit potential sales if they're too restrictive.

    Not true, look at all the free (and often open-source) software we get to use all the time. If the content you speak of is low effort mesh-slapping, then don't pay for it.
    Time is valuable, if someone donates it so that others can enjoy content, then I'd certainly consider it a privilege. Sure it might not be "privilege" in a socio-economic context, but the same argument applies to human rights vs legal rights.
    BeamNG doesn't use anti-piracy methods, at all?
     
  3. default0.0player

    default0.0player
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    IDK, since I'm not a dev.
    --- Post updated ---
    That's why other mods are way more than sounds mods.
    Why do you want mod content to be encrypted when the official vehicles such as Autobello Piccolina are not
     
    #203 default0.0player, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  4. AX53

    AX53
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    The context of why I said what I did can be found within the comment I was replying to. Since you don't wanna look up the context on your own, I will do a quick summary. The comment pointed out that third party websites consitently leak paid addons because there is no authorization process to protect paid 3rd party addons. Encryption on paid mods could be a solution to this, which is why I pointed it out.

    BeamNG needs no such thing for the provided vanilla vehicles, because they are bundled with the game which as a whole have an authorization process. Basically, you have to pay for the game to get the game content. So making sure the user have legal ownership of the game itself is sufficient and no further authorization is needed. It also helps modding that the cars and tracks are open source.
    There is on exception to this however: The engine sound samples used in BeamNG are licensed by a 3rd party and thus they need encryption. Sounds familiar?

    I will spell it out for you just in case you didn't get it. Paid mods are also 3rd party licensed content, just like the engine sound samples. The engine sounds samples are encrypted but paid mods are not.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Nazu

    Nazu
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    did we seriously forget the topic of this thread
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Car8john

    Car8john
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    id rather have people argue about the morals of paid mods here than on the picnic thread, just saying if it wasnt here it would be there
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. mrwallace888

    mrwallace888
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    The problem I have with paid mods is the capitalization of it. It just feels like everything nowadays has to have money behind it. Back in the day people took the time to make mods for games not for money but to make other users happy. To give people something to toy with. It was a hobby, and it was something on the side that they could do in their spare time. But now nobody does anything as a hobby, people do it to make money. It doesn't seem like anyone really makes music, books, or videos anymore because it's fun, they do them because it's how they make a living.

    The whole point of mods from the start was that they were free. It's not like this is DLC from the official developers of a game. Now it feels like 90 percent of the mods for 90 percent of all my games are paid for. There was a game I had growing up as a kid (and this too, think about the kids who like modding games but can't because everything costs money. Not everyone can just ask their dad, you know?), I don't remember what game because this was a long time ago. I really wanted to mod the game but all the mods were about 5 bucks each. The game itself was like 15 bucks.

    Sometimes also, you'll be spending money for paid mods, and next thing you know you've spent like 50-100 bucks on mods for a game that costs a fraction of that.

    I just wish everything wasn't capitalized. I get that people put time and effort into these things, but from the start it was never about the money. Modders never sat there and went "Man I wonder how much money I can make off of this." And if you liked a product, then you could always send thanks, or even send them a donation if you so wished. And I'm more than certain that in a fair number of communities, most modders did make a little extra from the donations. But money wasn't the issue.

    When you're doing a hobby, do you do it because it's something you enjoy or because you make money from it? In other words, where do you draw the line? When does it go from a talented hobbyist to a sellout?

    BeamNG.drive is among one of the worst games to make paid mods for. BeamNG.drive gets updated somewhat often, usually a handful of times a year. And every time an update happens, 9 chances out of 10 the mod you paid for is going to break. And in most cases it can take literally months to get that fixed. And by the time it's finally been fixed, unfortunately another update is right around the corner to break it again. And even then there’s no guarantee it’ll be fixed in the future. At least with free mods, if it breaks it’s not a big deal, you didn’t really lose anything from it breaking besides the mod itself. With a paid mod, your money is gone. And at least with free mods if it doesn’t plan on getting updated or fixed, at least for a while, it lets others swoop in and say “here you go, I made a hotfix so that it works again, have fun”. You can’t do that with paid mods. If something breaks and the author doesn’t plan on fixing it, you’re usually screwed. Or if they do want to fix it, it’ll take a long time to do, and by then they want to add new content anyways so it’ll take longer for the fix/update to release. But because it’s paid you have to solely wait for them, instead of letting others upload fixes themselves to help keep the mod going for a little longer until an official mod update.

    With the arrival of paid mods, it's more than likely that for a lot of games, practically everything is going to be behind a paywall. While users aren't entitled to things, it still seems unfair that everything has to be paid for now. It's never just "here's something I made for you people to enjoy", now it's just "well what's in it for me?"

    If you're making a mod for people, it should be because you enjoy modding. Because that's what modding is about. It should be about the improvement of other users' experiences. And again, if people enjoy it and want to toss a few bucks your way as a way of saying "thanks", then that's fine, and I highly encourage it too. But modding shouldn't really be considered a "career".

    Commissions, on the other hand, are fine. If people want to pay you for a suggestion, that's fine. I don't have any problems with that. Because I get that people can be picky bastards about things who get pissed off about what you're making, or will constantly suggest things that you don't really have interest in making, and money in that aspect can be an incentive to make it. I know a guy who made custom Sakarias88 Cars (Scars) for Garry's Mod, and every time he released new cars on Steam Workshop, this one guy was harassing him on every mod because he didn't make a Plymouth Roadrunner.

    The issue I have is with restricting end users. Let's say you want a certain car for BeamNG.drive. Like... say, I don't know, a Mercedes McLaren SLR. Let's say that nobody has made a mod for that except for one guy. Tough luck, it costs money. Even worse if you're a kid who's into cars and really likes the SLR that doesn't have the income to spend money, and has to resort to asking his parents (which 9 times out of 10 they won't buy it). Most cars especially are all mesh slaps. So you gotta pay if you want a car that's like, at least slightly more high quality than that. But who knows, maybe people will start charging for mesh slaps, too. Like I said there's a very good chance that in the near future everything will have to be purchased. And people don't want that because again, modding is a hobby, not a career. And if you have to make mods to make a living, you've probably got bigger problems to worry about. Not to mention that it's not your game. You're asking for money for things you've made for a game that came from someone else.

    I think another reason why so many mods for games nowadays are paid is so that it reduces negative criticism. And let's be honest, getting negative criticism about literally anything is going to be a given. No matter what you do you're always going to have to deal with it. Having your mod require a purchase if anything is probably just ammo for negative criticism. There's better ways to handle it and I don't think purchasing is one of them.

    Then there's the case of abundance. There's certain mods for certain games where there's a lot of the same thing, but they're all restricted. For GTA V a lot of people want a Shutoko Expressway/Wangan map for the game. There's like 30 of them for the game, but all of them are paid or private, mostly private, so hardly anyone has access to it, so if people want the map, they're out of luck.

    Let's take a look at LucasBE's work as an example. So recently he made roof accessories and the Cherrier Picnic. They are both paid. Does LucasBE enjoy modding as a hobby or as a way to make a quick buck? I'm more than certain his mods are high quality, I'm not doubting that. But when he made the mod was he thinking about how much fun he's having developing it, or was he thinking about how much he can make from it?

    I myself have done quite a lot of things. I've written stories, and I make music and videos. And hell, I've even had my fair share of developing mods, or programming games, etc. But I've never done any of it for financial gain. I actually like sitting at my computer, typing code or composing a new song. I like taking the time out of my day to do it. Because I enjoy it. It's a hobby. And to me, it's more than enough to just feel the satisfaction after completing something and releasing out to the world for everyone to see. It's a good feeling.

    I know that people aren't going to like the things I release. I know that I'm going to get negative criticism. And to be honest, I'm okay with that. I know the things I make aren't perfect or up to everyone's tastes. But I'm glad that people still took the time out of their day to try what I've made and to tell me what they think. And I definitely appreciate those that enjoy my stuff for what it is simply because I took the time out of my day myself to make what I enjoy making. And it's perfectly fine if people want to send some cash my way as a way of saying "thanks". I know tons of people who make mods for Half-Life 2. Some are funny, others make you cry. Hammer is a very complex tool to use for Half-Life 2. But once you know how to use it it can be a lot of fun making things. There's people who make mods that aren't that good in quality, but in the end, for what it's worth as a passion project of theirs, the mods are great!

    Back to the topic at hand, as I was saying, I just wish it wasn't about the money. I know these things take time and effort but why can't people do things because they actually enjoy doing it anymore? Hell, even Patreon used to be different. Patreon was originally a means of just supporting someone you enjoy. It's no different to when people were getting PayPal donations. People liked stuff so they gave some money to support them. No big deal. With Patreon, yeah you got a few extra benefits, but even that wasn't a guarantee.

    But nowadays, everyone's using Patreon as a store. Most of their stuff is exclusively locked behind their Patreon. You have to support them financially if you want access to anything. It's one thing if mods are early access for a while, where it'll take a bit for them to get released to the public, but if you support their Patreon you can get it early, and some people do do that.

    Wanted188 makes car mods for GTA V. But now almost everything he makes is Patreon-exclusive. His excuse was because people were stealing his work and selling it. So he figured making his mods purchasable would help. And did it? Well, I think it's safe to say that no, it most likely didn't. People can still buy his work and then resell it elsewhere for a higher price or to break even, nothing's stopping that from happening. But even then, just because 3 out of 1,000,000 people are ruining what you're doing, you should in-turn ruin it for everybody else too?
     
    #207 mrwallace888, May 12, 2022
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 16
  8. crashmaster

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    very long. but no joke, all i couldn't think of is written here.
    there is nothing else in this thread that i agree more then this post.
    thank you.
     
  9. AX53

    AX53
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    I don't really agree. It's a misconception that mods break with every update. It only applies for mods that rely on a specific vanilla vehicle. (as most free mods do).
    But ideally, a paid mod would be a standalone mod. These are much more robust and can survive updates without problems. Certain things could get dated. Such as the switch to PBR materials. But the game is still backwards compatible with pre-pbr materials, so even this wouldn't be much of a problem.

    Further more, a standalone vehicle in BeamNG in particular involves quite alot of work compared to mods for other games
    Modelling: More so than for most other car games because you need to make the car detailed with engine bay, wheel wells, full interior, undercarriage, core support, engine models, suspension models.
    Jbeam: This is unarguably the most time consuming vehicle back end to setup for a car game. Thousands of lines of jbeam code. It involves engineering in the form of structural integrity, stability, suspension geometry, steering geometry with bumpsteer elimination. Articulating parts. Detaching parts. Crash deformation.
    Texturing: when you start to get into quality PBR materials we're talking about time consuming high-to-low poly baking and/or investing in expensive software such as substance painter.
    Mod finish: BeamNG have a rather high finish standard. There are many aspects to clean up when you're getting towards the end stage of a mod in order to make the part selector comprehensive and to fledge out the jbeam in all the areas you've missed previously. There are many nooks and crannys of the 3D model that have to be covered. Such as the door-jams, boot jam, sub fender wheel wells, interior pillars.

    With all these things in mind, I think it's incorrect to say that BeamNG is the worst game for paid mods. It's in fact one of the games where mods have the highest potential labor cost.

    I also hate the insinuation that LucasBE is greedy or only does mods for money. The fact is that he have been making free mods of very high quality for a long time. And he have stated that he will continue to make free mods in the future. Just because he throws in a paid project every once in a while doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy modding. It's also ironic that certain community members are quick to call Lucas greedy when they themselves can't imagine a world where they would pay a measly 3.8 euro, not for the Picnic, but as support for all the mods Lucas have been making for the past years. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but it's hypocricy at a high level.

    I don't see why having fun making a mod means you also have to release it for free. You can have fun making a mod. You can have fun using your own mod. But what's to say the fun relies solely on other people getting their hands on your work for free? I would say that releasing even free mods often come with a huge community pressure of people getting impatient, people asking for specific things they want, people doing subtle insults time and time again. Of course there are people who support you if you make good mods, but sadly the negativity can occasionally get to you. That's certainly not fun.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. default0.0player

    default0.0player
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    Incorrect. Mods are in no way affiliated with BeamNG devs, unlike official sounds.
     
  11. AX53

    AX53
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    Never said they were.
     
  12. default0.0player

    default0.0player
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    This. BeamNG must not head to that direction
     
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  13. mrwallace888

    mrwallace888
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    Exactly. Sure, mods are cheap as they are individually, but then it adds up as you start buying several. Especially since like I said, for a lot of games paid mods are becoming more common, and it may become a point where every mod is paid.

    And like I said as well what if you're a kid who likes modding? Tough luck then? Because I don't know many kids who can just keep asking their dad all the time to pay "a measly 3.8 euro" for mods.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. AX53

    AX53
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    The problem is that you're assuming every mod is going to be paid. In the case of Lucas he stated previously that this was not going to be the case. I'm sure the community reaction of non tolerance is helping alot with that. What you're working yourself up over is mesh slap scammers. Who even cares? Those mods are laazy. Anyone can make them.
     
  15. default0.0player

    default0.0player
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    Much worse in some games. There are many flight simulator game mods that a single mod costs much more than the very game it runs on.
     
    #215 default0.0player, May 12, 2022
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
  16. Unamused

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    I feel as though there's a lot of whataboutism in this thread - using 'but muh other game is (more) expensive when you buy mods' when this discussion could benifit from a lot more objective thinking.
    Personally I like the idea of extremely high quality mods earning the creator a few bucks, but there are downsides.
    • A byproduct of BeamNG being hard to mod (well) for is that high quality mods like this come out not very often, meaning that if this style of monetization becomes common then seeing a new mod from a well-known modder come out only to see the [PAID] tag in the title is gonna get a whole lot more disconcerting.
    • Cost of Mods / Cost of Game is a big issue in my mind. When it happens to other games it does nothing but make those game's modding communities worse by encouraging salt and drama within said communities. The fact that BeamNG is a relatively cheap game at face value should, I think, be taken into account. Adding to what some other members were saying earlier, with Beam beind sold currently on steam for approx. $24, it would take just over 6-9 of these paid mods at between $1.50 and $4 to overtake the value of the game, I can say with confidence that a lot of us have far more than this amount currently installed.
    • With this said I'm all for creators having patreon links/kofi links. Maybe something like 'get this mod a month earlier than everyone else and have a say in the configs/skins' would be a healthy compromise, with the dev times for these mods being as high as they are I bet quite a few people would be willing to pay even more than $4 for early access.
    • Another good point brought up was the continuous nature of these mods, and whilst I disagree that when an update breaks the game the dev wouldn't update them quickly (as bearing in mind these devs now have a monetary incentive instead of it simply being a hobby), a 'pump and dump' scheme has a potential to cause a whole lot of issues ethics wise both for the community and the BeamNG team.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Yash_gamin144

    Yash_gamin144
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    "Modding is a hobby, Not a job"
    - Master Oogway
     
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  18. CaptainZoll

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    you can still get paid for a hobby though
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  19. OldSnake

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    the best way in my opinion was to pay for it earlier, seeing people happy to pay for a mod I'm sure they would have paid for it before the others.
     
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  20. PowerstrokeHD

    PowerstrokeHD
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    Wasn't there a girl on TikTok who made either 20k or 200k for selling farts in a jar? I don't mean this in a sarcastic way but I am just saying that there are people who not only sell stuff related to their hobby but also people who buy really ridiculous stuff.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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