Modders: We need to talk

I really do not like that word.

 

i've seen that one of my mod is landed on russian download mod site, this winter. Is it possible to create a security system? (maybe in the heart of the mods, prrr. Or no download if no last update of the game )

 

First of all, I'm not really a mod author since I've only ever made some private engine/suspension mods and edited a few parts I've never released because of lack of skill, but I still have an opinion on some of these points.

• Ability to beta-test new versions before they get released to be able to ensure the mods still work with them?

- This would be a good thing since now when an update releases many mods get (partially) broken and this could maybe solve that problem, but would this be available for all mod authors, or just selected ones? I'm bringing this up because I'd imagine people creating low quality mods just to get access to that newer version, and maybe even upload stuff elsewhere. (Or maybe I just don't have enough faith in people nowadays)

• Paid mods - We think you deserve a reward of your work. We would favor a 70%/30% model where the mod author would earn 70% of the income for the items. Whats your standpoint about this?

- I've personally bought two paid mods for Assetto Corsa. One had a fixed price, one was based on a donation system to get the latest version. While I enjoyed both mods, and I think mod authors deserve money for their work (assuming it's high quality), I'm not sure if I actually like this approach because not everyone has money to spend on mods for a game they already paid for.

• We would like to start a 'kickstarter' based way of mod funding. The community should select a mod that they want out of proposals of mod authors, and we as developers will invest a small amount of money (100 USD on start, 200 on completion for example) as reward for the guy to finish it with decent quality. We would like to show to the public that mod creation is not an easy task and a lot of time and money is required to create something.

- I really like this idea, and maybe even in a slightly different form to expand on the last point. Instead of solely you as developers investing your money in attracting mod authors to create new mods chosen by the community, maybe it would be possible to make a system just like the actual kickstarted site uses, where everyone donates until a certain target is met (but keep donations open so people can keep donating even after the target is met), and if the mod is not finished or of very low quality the money would be refunded to donators. This way those of the community that are able to pay for it are the ones who get to "vote" which mods should be made, the authors get paid for their work and everyone else would still be able to enjoy the mods. I don't know if this would be realisable at all though, but if it is I think it would be a decent way to "solve" the payment part.

 

First off, great ideas, and many thanks to you guys for listening to the community and taking our suggestions at face value. Thanks also for making a brilliant game and physics system. It certainly beats anything I've ever come across. Secondly, it's too bad that the donation system won't work. I believe a donation system would be greatly appreciated, as people can donate what they want and support the person who went to the trouble of making it without it becoming a forced system. On the other hand, the forced one would probably encourage the modders to better the quality and detail of their mods. If it is forced, then would refunds be a thing? I still have to go through how Steam Wallet functions. However, how are the "microtransactions" going to function? I would've thought of that as a swear word around these parts. Neidjel makes a good point above my post about this.

The increased communication between the community and the devs will no doubt be a welcome introduction, as well as the improved tutorials and wiki pages. Who knows? It might even encourage me to fire up the old toaster, get off my arse, and get modding!

 

Just an idea but maybe a donation system similar to Humble Bundle could work:
Donate atleast 1$ for the base mod
Donate atleast 3$ for base mod + more parts
Donate atleast 5$ for base mod + more parts + even more parts and maybe a trailer

 

Paid mod seems a very bad idea to me. The whole point of mods is the free expansion of a game in various ways, that makes it more exciting. I bought Beamng because I knew there wouldn't be only basic cars and maps, and that the community would make it much more than that. Having a lot of mods of non-professional quality is perfectly fine as long as it is made for free by an enthusiast community. Donations are nice too, because some people who enjoy very much some of the mods should also express their gratitude, but I think this should remain a special case. Don't forget that by making mods for free, people also learn skills that can be useful for them later, and that is already a benefit for them.

On the other hand, I have to admit that a very little part of the content creators make stuff that is professional quality and nearly at the quality level of the game itself. But it is a little minority of them. I agree these people should get paid. But since they make content at the level of the game, why not simply having them in the crew part-time or for periods of time, and release their work as part of the game as DLC's for example ? I mean, not having them in your office, but communicating with them on a daily basis to have them build an actual part of the standard game.
That seems complicated, but it makes more sense to me than paid mods. Working with the creators would really ensure the standard.

Also, what we need to aknowledge is that you put more and more work into the game, and that standard content has exploded in the past year. You could periodically raise the game price a little (as the price is very reasonable right now for what the game is), like they did for Dirt Rally in its beta phase. That would pay for the repository and such.

What would happen for me with a paid mods system ? I simply wouldn't use 90% of the mods, because I don't want to pay for something that is just remotely exciting. I would have much less content, of not so good quality and would not enjoy the game as much. I would play it less and possibly leave the community.

To me, either you let people make a lot of content, of which the most part isn't as good as the game, but that is fine as it is free and it makes the game far more diverse, either you hire more people to make really good content and we have to pay for it. If you want peolpe to pay for mods, they have to be as good as the game.
Something between both of these has room for so much abuse, on the modders part as well as the developpers (which I trust at the moment, but that can change). I think the quality control should be very strict and that can easily turn into a community nightmare.
You would have kids asking for money for their first shitty mod because they feel it is good enough, and their would be a war between who can be paid and who can't. Also, some good content creators would give their work for much less or more than others, and that could be unfair for some of them.

If you want to make this system work, you will have to hire more people to do a strict and justified quality control, and also a whole new part of the forum for paid mods that would be strictly moderated to avoid a community riot.
And even with that, people will leave, some because they don't have enough money to have an exciting and diverse game, and some because they just hate the principle of "microtransaction", like me.

Be careful, this microtransaction thing has killed a lot of games and communities in the past, even when it was partly justified, and I don't want this awesome game and community to end that stupidly.

Also, cheers to devs and modders for making this game so awesome, and long live Open Source !

 

Tried to ask this in the discord but tdev and nadeox appear to have disappeared.

It was mentioned mods being purchased using steam wallet funds, fine by me, sell some trading cards get a mod and all that. But what about the income to modder gets, would this go straight to paypal/a bank account or again be rewarded as steam wallet funds? I'd imagine one of the prior 2 rather than the latter, but thought I'd check.

 

Wow..this thread is mind blowing, you guys are awesome.

I can't even comprehend how a paid mod scheme could work nor am I really turned on to the idea.
Personally I'm quite happy with the wealth of knowledge and amount of fun I am getting for my
$20 these past two and a half years. I am learning through this program and am extremely
grateful for the return on my investment so far. I am a novice, I do not think I should be paid
for anything I am currently or plan on making. My money, if I ever pursue that, will come when
it's worth it.

I guess my biggest gripe has always been what I think is a complete lack of communication
regarding changes being made, why and how the community can best navigate those changes.
You guys are very busy and I am afraid the current thinking of this thread is only going to exacerbate
and overload you further. You guys have proven time and again you aim to please and I have been
concerned you guys are almost doing this to a fault.

All I would ask is to respond to community requests/questions for specific and detailed information
regarding anything Torque3D/BeamNG modding, in essence the direct communication option. Replies
to questions at times are either non-existent, vague and uninformative or just plain rude.

I love you guys and I love this game. The whole experience is just wonderful and fun. I want you guys
to find balance in what you do that will provide a 'team' feeling between everyone.

Welp, that's my two cents and no matter what happens I will get enjoyment out of it. Thank you!

 

Aboraoth, it appears to me that you devaluate a bit your work. Baja hills is one of the beautifullest map in terms of lightning and atmosphere, and realism.
Not every one can do that.
The fact is : nobody is putting guns on our head to make mod, and making mods for this game is incredibly addictive. But also incredibly time consuming and a lot of energy cost, when high quality is the purpose.
Bouncing on what Flex was saying about modders be paid as developpers. The main problem i see is licensing issues. While in game cars are imaginary, mods are interesting because they often provide IRL cars that people appreciate, giving to the game a "car chase in movies" approach. Such mods as the Fleetwood bounder are evocative also, in term of popularity.

But being paid for those would provide licensing issues very quick. As far as it's a non profit fan art it's ok, but with money involved.
On the other side many artists are drawing Hulk or spiderman and are paid for commissions, and they don't own the licence, it's admitted, so i don't know.

 

Thank you for your kind words. I do consider myself a modder in that I 'mod' something else. Not one thing
in Baja Hills except for the height map is of my creation, nothing. I used materials and assets made by others and put them together to my liking. My personal belief is as long as I am doing that I am not entitled to compensation of any kind except for the wonderful feedback. My standards in this regard are very strict. I feel compensation is warranted when a map or vehicle is 100% handcrafted by me. This is why I agree with many who are saying the paid mod idea will cascade into a major problem in that people will take advantage of it and the devs will require
untold amounts of time and energy to police it properly. That is not a wise decision when so many are deeply
tied to making this groundbreaking game work in this century.

I honestly think the paid mod scheme is asking for trouble and a bit of overkill at this time. I say lets get
used to talking with the devs on a more personal basis first and go from there.

 

I'm too lazy to read through everyone's detailed responses, but won't a paid mods system just make the many websites featuring low-quality mods and reuploads of forum mods turn into full-on thriving pirate websites? A lot of people here aren't willing to pay money for a BeamNG mod, no matter how much time the author spent on it. How will we prevent this from happening?

 

Firstly, thanks for doing this. Its really awesome to see that you are putting effort into these sorts of things.

Personally what I would like to see is better and easier documentation. Primarily through the wiki. As I am sure you are aware modding for BeamNG is not exactly a trivial activity, meaning good documentation would be really nice. So lets take Beams for example, in this case the wiki page actually has a fair amount of useful information on it, but it really is a wall of text making it a little difficult to understand. But also some basic information is not included, for example does increasing BeamSpring make the beam more "springy" or does increasing it make it stiffer?

While I am willing to do some work on the wiki myself I am also very aware that when I post to it the phrase "The blind leading the blind" comes to mind. While I can try and do testing and try to figure things out, I know that I will make mistakes and sometimes I will completely overlook some really important things. Which is why I and I presume many others aren't super keen on editing the wiki.

So in general more comprehensive but easier to understand wiki pages would be really nice. Maybe with some gif's thrown in to show ideas more visually.

 

There are so many mixed views i think it could shatter the community. When money is involved in anything it can turn sour really quickly. I dont get why so many people here dont trust the devs to make something work... they are some of the least corrupt people i have ever seen. Its not like a big company doing this or anything, i believe everything would be kept in check and in order.

 

I think an important thing to note is that nowhere has it been mentioned that this is a forced system. Looks like I can still publish a mod for free, even when the system is in place

 

But why would you publish it for free when you could just charge for it? if anything paid mods would just make people move to that one russian site and ruin the community. Paid mods will be the end of gaming, games these days are already coming out with less and less content, and more DLC, and with a game dependant on mods having paid mods that would be like a game thats dependent on DLC, like a mobile game.

 

If its a simple mod. The paid system is for advanced mods like entire vehicles with alot of detail. Also in order to be a paid mod it has to be approved by the devs before.

 

This thread is awesome, as is the dev team. Thank you for the thoughtfulness!

Regarding more modder-friendly development of the game, I'd appreciate a roadmap of the next update through PM or group chat or whatever, specifically of what new jbeam function(s) is/are being added or becoming obsolete, and major developments that makes older mods freak out the physics. I'd be happy to be placed under an NDA if it means my "work" will be functional for every update. While super cool, access to beta builds might be somewhat drastic. Writing up the technicals of each new update should be more informative, and sets the groundwork for a Wiki entry, killing two birds with one frozen egg.

I understand BeamNG is still early-ish in development and is subject to substantial change, but I'd much rather be aware of what's new/obsolete to the game and preparing my mods for them instead of waiting for an update and having to debug broken bits and add new bits almost blind for like half a dozen projects.

Paid mods are an awful idea, IMHO. I create mods in my free time for the community and expect nothing back because I lose nothing. I refuse to feel entitled to anything or place myself on a pedestal because I released a half-assed racecar and stuck a dick disguised as a dinner on an official car to make a statement. Donations seem to work on a couple of game mod sites, and I have donated before, but again I don't have much interest.
I can also see a lot of kids begging for freebies and bothering people who have bought mods to send it to them. Horrifying.

The costs involved in file delivery are frankly scary. With this in context, monetising mods does make sense to supplement for servers and traffic costs, but I can't say the repercussions for the community will be great.

My 2c, at nearly 2am.

 

Because maybe I am a reasonable person?

I'm not gonna lie. I have been interested in knowing every in and out of how a modder would be making money through this system. That doesnt mean I am going to turn and charge for anything. Even if 1 of my questions (now answered in discord) would have concerned how Atomix and I would be earning money should the joint mods be sold, doesnt mean I have any intention of monetising them, I just want to know how that would work. In all honesty, I dont think anything with that creditation is worth monetising yet.

 

People will still make free mods. When you make someone pay for something they are gonna get annoyed when it breaks which it will if its a mod. Im fairly sure many mod makers will not want to deal with this sort of thing. As well as any possible liabilities and just "customers" in general.