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Sneak Peek: Tire Physics Development

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by stenyak, Jul 7, 2025.

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  1. stenyak

    stenyak
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    BeamNG Team

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    To keep expectation in check, I'll repeat that this is not something we'll be looking at in the short term. We need to focus our available dev time in what we feel matters the most. The lack of debeading is very secondary compared to improving the overall tire behaviour. Our tire testing data also does not include debeading scenarios, so if we ever work on that, it would be unrelated to the data we're currently gathering.

    Yup, as others mentioned, this is not necessarily the case: we've already done tests with higher and lower amounts of nodes, and the results are not as simple as one might expect.

    The smoothing is not happening necessarily in terms of 3D node positions (tho the positions may slightly change too). Rather this is about how the collision detection system works internally, as well as the subsequent physics engine calculations. And in addition to that, a smoother result happens due to the higher sampling rate at high speeds (more vehicle speed = more data per second = smoother overall result).

    Gyroscopic effects stabilize a wheel in the plane of rotation. This is not "in consideration" so much as it's an inevitable part of our soft-body physics engine: we didn't implement this explicitly, it simply happens. Just like the dzhanibekov effect happens naturally even though we didn't intentionally implement it. And probably more effects that we never considered or we may not even know about :)

    All these "effects" of course will play some role in the general vehicle behaviour, and luckily we don't need to worry about them like other physics engines may have to.

    Very roughly it's... around 3 people who sometimes do work on tires, I guess. They are not focused exclusively on "tires" tho, tires are just one of their numerous areas of work.

    Grip levels are not tuned for FFB feel. That would be similar to modifying earth gravity in order to "improve" vehicle handling... not only would that be horribly wrong, but would likely lead to an explosion of unexpected issues down the road, each issue requiring even more horrible hacks, and so on. We prefer to do things "right" from first principles (to the extent that we can, being a computer simulation running on regular computers in real time).

    Funnily enough, most people ignore this, but those behaviours also happen in real life to a lesser extent. They can be quite dangerous, and are the reason I often remove the ABS fuse in trackdays for my own safety (specially in tracks where wheels may lift off the ground, or if I'm drifting in rainy days). The underlying reason for these issues (both IRL as in BeamNG) is that we use realistically constrained sensor data, rather than magic omniscient game data (like our 'Arcade' ABS can use, and which avoids entire categories of ABS issues).

    For example, we have no clue what real speed the car is travelling, neither in real life nor in beamng. We have to work with educated guesses, based on analysis/fusion of various data streams (like wheelspeed sensors, accelerometers, etc). Normally the guesses are quite accurate, but sometimes it's not entirely right, or it can be completely wrong.

    As for why our ABS replicates IRL issues but sometimes they have a greater effect, it's simply manpower: we only have 1 person who works on these systems (as part of their other numerous tasks!), while real manufacturers have the budget to contract companies with entire divisions dedicated to engineering and selling these modules.
     
    #61 stenyak, Jul 23, 2025
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  2. Neverless

    Neverless
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    I see this is plastered with a lot of interesting questions and i love how they are also answered! I hope upcoming to the release we will see some more tech blogs about it! ^-^

    Also got a question. How about tire filth? Tire touches grass, picks something of it up and that influences the tires behavior. I saw the footage and it got me thinking that the opportunity might have been there to also expand the testing to tires with different filth kinds. Dirt, sand, gravel ...
    Im working on exactly this myself atm, albeit on a whole "what feels right" basis as i got no data and that only as an extension of a dynamic surface mod. Impossible to believe that i be able to match irl behavior of a filthy tire, but at best an abstraction of it. However if this was also part of your research and/or perhaps is apart of a future plan then ill be happy
     
    #62 Neverless, Jul 23, 2025
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  3. Pr9tkin

    Pr9tkin
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    Are you already using "AI"? For example, it could help find the optimal configuration of beams and nodes for tires, or maybe it's worth coming up with a different approach for tires, not tying them to soft body physics, but a more suitable method for this? "just my thoughts".
     
    #63 Pr9tkin, Jul 23, 2025
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  4. BravoNovemberZulu

    BravoNovemberZulu
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    There is no development update you could have posted that would have made me happier. This is exactly the kind of detail I'm interested in and exactly the kind of work that has to be done to advance driving simulations. Massive, massive kudos.
     
    #64 BravoNovemberZulu, Jul 24, 2025
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  5. HybridRooDragon

    HybridRooDragon
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    No ai shortcuts. These devs are dedicated to not cutting corners. Let them cook
     
    #65 HybridRooDragon, Aug 25, 2025 at 7:50 AM
  6. Flyer952

    Flyer952
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    Yeah no. Judging by how much work this takes, I'd imagine at the earliest maybe v0.39 or so. Let the men cook, damn it! Let men man the grill!

    That little cook joke aside, let's be real with each other, do you really think they're going to slack on something major as this? Absolutely not. So as a result, I'd imagine it might take until roughly v0.39 to be much more optimised.

    Sure, it IS 100% possible they might do 0.37 as a start, but fully finalising ALL of it, accounting the COUNTLESS mods people tend to get as well? It'll probably take until 0.39 or so until wholly optimised.

    But then again, given they got to 0.36 within less than 2 years after 0.33 or 0.34 (whichever update had the new minivan), who knows?
    --- Post updated ---
    What about tire dirtying (i.e. veering off the track and getting back on) or simply a slick surface (i.e. from rain)? Just curious there.
     
    #66 Flyer952, Aug 26, 2025 at 3:12 AM
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  7. HybridRooDragon

    HybridRooDragon
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    Being honest with you.... Having an update to the tire system that causes blowouts to happen a lot easier would be kind of funny. But that totally depends. Sure it would break the game but you know... People pay 24 dollars for a LEADING CUTTING EDGE simulator like HOLY FUDGE. And its only .36 of the way to beta or something!?. Mind is BLOWN still
    --- Post updated ---
    Even if the update was made in error I would forgive the devs. This games amazing(but a pet peeve is when they make things that are supposed to be moving static like half shafts.)
     
    #67 HybridRooDragon, Aug 26, 2025 at 7:04 PM
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  8. Flyer952

    Flyer952
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    Yeah that's kinda what I meant in another post when I said the game is a bit generous with powertrain losses and physics at times.
     
    #68 Flyer952, Aug 27, 2025 at 4:56 AM
  9. HybridRooDragon

    HybridRooDragon
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    Even if the update was made in error I would forgive the devs. This games amazing(but a pet peeve is when they make things that are supposed to be moving static like half shafts. But belt
    Im glad they are working hard to make this game extremely ultra good. I hope they keep it up indefinitely the way they have been so far. If an update causes tire blowouts to happen because of the mesh overinflating or something and snagging on stuff and bursting and popping extremely easily id still forgive them. Coding is hard
     
    #69 HybridRooDragon, Aug 27, 2025 at 10:39 AM
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