Some thoughts

I want to start this off by saying I by no means mean to question the recent bans of certain users for putting objectively obscene content in their mods. Those bans were deserved. I’ve spoken to one of the creators of said mods, and even they agree that being banned for the contents of their mod was deserved. That isn’t what I wish to talk about in this thread, and I don’t want any further discussion or debate about that in the comments either.


No, the events of last night have simply been the spark in an ever-increasing powder-keg of discontent among these forums, and I want to talk about why this is and what I think can be done to improve things.


Almost a month ago, I posted a thread advocating for improved communication between the forum moderators and general audience of these forums. There were a lot of changes happening very fast, and it was unclear why many of these things were changing. Features that had existed for years were snapped away in an instant, and the only rationale for some of these changes were vague comments of “security concerns” or “abused features.” Even after that thread, features such as the ability to edit old posts silently evaporated in a dark corner, with only the whispered rumors of distraught Discord users to even hint at the reason for this execution. I found myself sighing in defeat, trying to determine which of the three rumors (if any) accurately explained why I was no longer permitted to update the incredibly outdated first post of the Ibishu Kashira thread.


It seemed we’d reached an end of an era, a turning point in the forum’s history. The transparency that long-time users were used to had slowly vanished, and we were left with a confusing box of secrets that was quickly devolving into chaos. The announcement of the Discord server gave me a brief sense of hope, making me think that the intent of the recent forum actions had been to pivot the forums to a more locked-down and official medium, and have off-topic conversations and general chatting move to the Discord server. This was something I could’ve gotten used to. Yet that could not be further from what happened.


Shortly upon entry into the BeamNG Discord server, it became abundantly clear that it served to function merely as an extension of the forums rather than a separate entity. Off-topic conversation in #General was strictly prohibited, and the other original channels merely mirrored existing functions of the forums. You could share some screenshots (Community Screenshots), show mod progress (Development Screenshots), or get some assistance with game problems (Troubleshooting: Bugs, Questions and Support), but none of that really explained why there needed to be a Discord server in the first place.


Aside from that, the rules and moderation are some of the most inconsistent and unreasonable that I have ever experienced. I’d assumed that the Discord server would be a bit more lax than the forums (while still maintaining order), but I have never experienced anything as locked-down as that server. To this day, I see countless users using profanity, insulting others, and posting off-topic things. Yet I immediately got a temp-ban for referring to myself as an “idiot” for spending an hour not seeing a silly error while working on a mod. One of my friends got temp-banned for saying that they had a lot of “idiot drivers'' where they lived. Another one of my friends got perma-banned (notably bypassing the 3 warning rule) for replying that “NO, anime is a MEDIA” to a user referring to anime as a word I shouldn’t use here. I’ve talked with several other users who have had similar experiences, and were understandably upset. And I truly don’t mean to be rude, but this is simply an unacceptable way to moderate a server. Users should not have to play a guessing game over whether their innocent messages will or will not get them banned, while other users get away with blatantly breaking the rules. It’s chaotic and frustrating, and left a number of users feeling very fed-up with the moderation team.


And I realize, I’m dancing on really thin ice here by “[discussing] moderation actions publicly,” but that brings me to another thing I want to talk about. What are the limits of this rule? I understand the intent behind it is to stop users from bandwagoning against the moderators when a user was banned for reasons that cannot be made public, but the scope of this rule frightens me. If this rule had existed back in 2017, I’d potentially have been banned five or six times by now. Rating changes, user profile edits, thread locking, I’ve talked about countless moderation decisions publicly. I strongly believe that this kind of discussion is important for the health of the forums, especially when things are as unclear as they have been recently. Without effective communication between the moderators and the constituents of the forums, people tend to just get angry at authority out of a lack of understanding.


I sincerely doubt that nearly as much drama would have occurred over the past few months, had there been a clearer intent behind moderator actions. A simple “This feature was removed because it was abused in [x] way” or “This feature caused a security concern due to a flaw with the forum software” or “These users were banned for putting highly explicit things in their mods.” Even at least a mere acknowledgement that yes, this thing was removed or changed or happened on purpose would put a lot of people at ease. Sure, some of these things were done in retrospect, but by then the damage had already been done. Explanation for controversial things cannot be a reaction, it must be precautionary. It cannot be expected for users to simply accept that any feature they use could just vanish one night without a word. It cannot be expected for users to simply accept that they can be banned from the BeamNG Discord server at any moment for no reason. It cannot be expected for users to simply accept that any respectful criticism of the moderation team will land them a quick ban. I’m not asking for a lot, just a few sentences in a post every time something that affects the community as a whole is changed, and the opportunity for forum members to provide some (respectful!) input on the changes. But nothing is clear right now, and that lack of clarity makes people angry, and a whole forum of angry people leads to the events of last night and today.


I don’t think the anger of yesterday was ever truly about the bans that happened. I saw almost nobody who outright disagreed with the reasons the certain two users were banned, but I saw a great many people who were fuming at the moderation team for trying to keep things quiet. I don’t fault the mod team for that in the slightest, this was absolutely something that didn’t need public comment. But after the months and months of absolutely no communication about any major forum changes from the moderators, people were already angry, and this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. When the forums are constantly left in the dark about minor things, people lose trust that the major things are actually for a good reason. And the recently added Discord server certainly didn’t help things, as the ridiculous ease at which you can get banned from there made people think the same moderation logic now applied to the main forums. So all this pent-up tension was unleashed into a collective fit of rage by a mob of forum members who simply needed any excuse to get angry. I don’t condone the actions of these angry people, but I do understand why they are angry. I’ve said this a lot, but people get angry at things they do not understand, and even angrier when the key to understanding is hidden from them. I do understand that the rationale for certain actions cannot be made public, and I respect that. But for the things that can be openly discussed, I very strongly feel that they should be. If people can see the rationale for things, and understand why things are occurring, they will be far less angry when things occur in private that cannot be discussed. But right now, nobody trusts the moderation team because everything that happens is behind a locked steel door, and things constantly just happen with no comment or rationale.


I’ve never given up on these forums over my 3 years here, and I’m not ready to do that now. Sure, I think some things need to be changed, and the forums are far from perfect, but I’ve always had an incredibly fun and fulfilling time here, despite the flaws. Just like the engines that power all the detailed cars of BeamNG.Drive, sometimes you gotta upgrade your forum's internals to not blow up under over-torque. That’s a stupid analogy, but close enough.


As always, I truly hope that we can all work together to keep these forums amazing for everyone in the future. A little communication goes a long way.


Thank you,

~rezia

 

This is the longest post I've ever seen. Good Job!

 

I agree, the forums have been an interesting place recently, but what happened yesterday? I have been off the forums for a couple of days as I have been busy.

I have been here since mid-2015 (created an account when I got the game, forgot password, made a new one late 2015) I remember when the forum was a generally calm place.

 

I'm inclined to agree, the moderation on both the discord and the forums is really inconsistent, unfair and in all honesty becoming a husk to what it was and should've been back in the days of 2015-2016.

To be honest i feel that the community definitely isn't helping with the toilet storm of what happened in the discord last night. The modder in question def was aware of it and probably knew better, I personally feel that there needs to be a change into the rules, how moderation is handled and better definitions of 1. modding guidelines 2. enforcement of the guidelines (Such as making ban reasons clearer, more reasonable punishments, offers to edit the mod to remove the offending material) and 3. better checking of the mods in the first place so this doesn't happen in the future again. because IMO whoever gave the mod the all clear on the forums clearly did not check through that aforementioned persons mod through before allowing it to be published with the offending material.

 

with people being banned from the forums without notice, I am inclined to agree with the moderators with this....

if you look in the terms of service of the forum, it does say, the devs are able to ban people without warning.. so, yeah,

I am one of the strange beings that actually reads terms of services, and on a tos, what says goes. you all agreed to that when creating your account

4.4 The owners of beamng.com reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason or no reason.

4.6 The owners of beamng.com do not need to justify their actions.

 

I read the ToS aswell as follow it to the best degree i can. but some of the moderation decisions being taken, i feel are really unprofessional and unfair to the parties who are banned, while other people seemingly get away with what got person A banned.

 

I'd say that the moderators act a bit stressed. I mean, were in a global pandemic and the forum is very active, while the mod team is comparatively small, which means, that they can't overlook everything.

 

I mean, sometimes moderation can be a bit, bad, but trust me, I am an IT tech at a high school in England, trust me, sometimes you have to do bad things to make a point.

as long as what you do does not go against terms of service, moderators are fine, i once removed into a computer that a child was about to print 1500 pictures of Shrek onto, i had to put a stop to that and i had to call him out. must have been humiliating.

 

Sure, this is unacceptable, but honestly there is a lack of understanding between us and staff in current situation. I still dont get why shio got banned second time even tho she apologised in the post and only pointed out some rules that do not correspond to reality. She didnt even try to defend the second banned person and only tried to help in absolutely neutral way possible. Thats why the backlash happened. Just my two cents...

 

It doesn't change the fact that we have basically been left with no real roleplay options on the BeamNG site.

At least make a roleplay section of the forum or something like that.

 

Firstly, I would like to thank the staff for acknowledging this thread and expressing their opinion on Rezia's points.
The discord server - in my humble opinion, may I add - had some oversimplified rules and bots regarding mainly language, and the bot's rules were never quite clearly explained. As one who swears on a secondly basis, I can safely testify that swearing does not equal offensive language. Certain words, discriminating ones for instance, are unacceptable and I will not question that. However, I do think many a ban was undeserved or certainly rather odd. Thankfully this issue has been addressed by Nadeox1's post above, and I do hope that it is improved upon. The understaffed circumstance is quite apparently one that is severely affecting the transparency and freedom of both server and forum; I hope that there will be a solution soon, although frankly I have yet to come up with one of my own.

 

I wouldn't say it is better. If you are more knowledgeable about Discord, then maybe it is, but if you prefer forums, like I do, forum groups or threads seem better.

Either way, I think it would be better to have both.

 

Just curious, is there a timeline for the new forum software? Also, will everything from here transfer over?

 

Thats good to know. I vaguely remember the last time the forum software was changed and believe it went well. I didn't have an account at the time but I don't remember anyone being angry. Hopefully this time will go as smoothly and adds some exciting features.

If there is one thing I may suggest, it would be to differentiate between temp and perma bans with the "Banned" tag under someone username.

 

A message from shio that should clear up what she wanted to say.

 

At least he apologized for his errors and that's a good thing imo.

About the repo not being "quality-controlled" enough : as far as I know, only synsol and meywue are approving the mods. I just want to make it clear that they're both humans. As Nadeox said in this thread, their job is to first take down the most problem-causing mods, then work from there. They don't inspect each individual file of a mod.

 

Okay... since Nadeox1 did not reply to my DM, I'll just post my thoughts here since this thread is apparently not locked.

Before I start, let me make it explicit I see things from Shio's and Lamzumi's point of view on the issue. They have expressed their sorriness for the mistakes and agree to their bans, but what I'd like to address is Nadeox1's posting only tell his side of the story from his point of view with his emotions. Thus, I want to provide an opposing view so that you readers can be informed with both sides of issue.

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I'm in a Discord server with Lamzumi, and on behalf of us all, we apologize for the fiasco and for the additional trouble it has cause the BeamNG.drive team. Everyone has gotten a bit too heated over this, but as the dust settles I think some things need to be stated and seen. Shiokarai and Lamzumi are fine with their bans, but I would like some things to be clarified/reworded.

I would have liked Nadeox's "A few words"to acknowledge Lamzumi's error was a mistake and not an intentionally nasty surprise. We all understand it was justified grounds for a ban, but the first assumption would be to overly judge Lamzumi for something unintentional. A bit from Discord:

"the dakimakuras were originally [ ] creation, including the NSFW content. And it was a forgotten placeholder until it got replaced with SFW ones.
I know it wont make the situation any less f*d up as they see it, because I still chose to use it as a placeholder.

And that was my mistake
I should have used document instead of putting it directly in the pack"
- Lamzumi

Edited for language and anonymity of contributor.

Again, I'm not asking for a ban reversal or anything, but I think giving a bit of Lamzumi's voice would help with transparency. The way I see it, Nadeox1's wording in his post vilifies Lamzumi, which I think is unfair considering it is an honest mistake.

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I understand Nadeox1 was very frustrated with Shiokarai, and I do have to say it's sometimes hard to read beyond her bluntness at times. Nadeox has every right to feel the way he does, but my point here is I believe his opinion on this matter is quite biased.

My personal appeal for Shiokarai is that they did understand the need to change it, so "This eventually turned into his forum access being permanently revoked after showing no understanding for the gravity of their actions" is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. The first edit was not satisfactory, so Shiokarai has cleaned it up a second time to completely get rid of the reference and updated as that:

It seems Nadeox1 either is ignoring this fact or just was not informed of the changes and only saw Shiokarai's "the repository" post as her mocking devs.

To me, it seems her "the repository" post yesterday was the straw that broke the camel's back, and if that is the case, then the reason for the ban should be "discussions of moderation, warnings, or bans," or whatever. Not "Shiokarai has poor comprehension."

Let me be clear that "the repository" was not an inflammatory post but a genuine call for moderation reform and progressive changes.

Let me also be clear Lamzumi, Shiokarai, and Wo-Class have not insulted the moderators. They were expressing their genuine concerns. Moderators feeling insulted about criticism is not the fault of Lamzumi and gang, but is an issue with their own sensitivity and misinterpretation.

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I can say more and directly contend with moderator actions taken, I could be more condesending, etc. I will not, however, because I want this to be as "clean" of a post as possible. I highly value truth and transparency, and I was unsatisfied with the way Nadeox1 has framed the issue.

I cannot say I am an unbiased spectator - in fact I am quite the opposite since I am a part of Lamzumi's Discord group, and I have seen yesterday's events through those lens. I just hope my voice will be a good balance to Nadeox1's points, so that the truth can be better seen from two opposing views.

Thank you BeamNG.drive team for the great game, for all your efforts in mod review and forum moderating, etc. I write this not to be insulting but because I...